04 October 2008 @ 07:50 pm
I'd Love To Do Research Only...  
One thing about writing that drives me bonkers is doing research.

It's not even that I'm too lazy or can't be bothered to, on the contrary, I love reading and learning about cultural and historical things. It's just that in both fiction and non-fiction writing, I never quite know where to start.

The internet is a very broad and wonderful place. You usually find information about the stuff you're looking for, only you tend to end up on Wikipedia which is a great source for a general overview but as soon as you need details, you're screwed. At least that's what it's like for me. Perhaps I'm just not very good at googleling things, perhaps the internet's filled with mostly superficial stuff, perhaps it's a combination of the two--I don't know. Fact is, I never find the information I need. Never to the depth that I would like.

Same goes for books by the way--I've accepted a while ago I never seem to be able to find what I need for my papers and I usually write around it, but when I want to write fiction where I want to get every bit right, it gets a bit annoying. The books at our local library usually aren't theoretical enough while the books at my university are too theoretical. When I want to find out about lore, or historical details or medical facts (What were clothes made of in the 19th century? What was a typical meal in the 1920's? How long does it take someone to recover from pneumonia and what are typical steps? What's a typical police arrest like? These are just random questions, no worry ;-) ), I'm at a loss because I don't know where to look. Sometimes I go on amazon to look for books on a particular subject, but I can never find the right stuff. Especially when I'm trying to find out about every-day life in the 19th or early 20th century, about manners and morals and all the little things that make a story come to life.

Which brings me to a different matter: how many of historical details in books are actually facts, and how many are just author's guesses?

So just...I was wondering whether I'm the only one who feels that way. How much research do you do? Where? Any advice for me how to improve my research-fu? What do you do when you want to set your story in a time and place you only have a vague idea about? Where do you start? Do you also talk to people/experts? Are there any good websites for historic facts and such? (Like http://www.victorianlondon.org/, for example? Or [livejournal.com profile] little_details)

I'd love to hear your thoughts :-)
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[identity profile] ongiara.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 05:57 pm (UTC)
You know, just yesterday I was wondering how hard efficient literature research must have been in internetless time.

Well, google is helpful. When I seem to get stuck, I always try to google for a specific area of my paper which usually brings up a couple of more books.

Does your uni library have a tag search engine? Like Schlagwortsuche? Find one book and click through the respective tags should bring up more in the area.

But I guess it's likely you tried all that already.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:02 pm (UTC)
I seem to be lacking the required minimum of brain cells to use tag search engines because--I never find good stuff. Or very rarely. Even when I do find books, it's usually not what I need. I guess I'm not very creative or too creative when using tags. :-/
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[identity profile] ongiara.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:13 pm (UTC)
You do not! Those weird programs are just, well, technically mature. And most of the time they're incomplete as they need time to digitalize the inventory and tag it and all that jazz :/
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:17 pm (UTC)
But HOW do people their research for historical novels then? I seriously don't get it :-/ And it's killing me...

The programs are technically mature and I am technically challenged ;)
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[identity profile] ongiara.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:21 pm (UTC)
Oh, I meant technically IMmature.

But HOW do people their research for historical novels then?
Out of my pay grade and also not my area of expertise. :/ Do you need a lot more books for your thesis?
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:24 pm (UTC)
I hope not...I'll try to find useful articles. *crosses fingers*

Right now it's also more of a "I want to write something set in a different time and boy do I NOT know what it was like back then." issue :)

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[identity profile] ongiara.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:27 pm (UTC)
now it's also more of a "I want to write something set in a different time and boy do I NOT know what it was like back then." issue :)
Have you tried getting a hold of movies set in that time?
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:35 pm (UTC)
All my vague ideas stem from that time :)I just...I really like books and online sites that I can print out and then mark certain passages or use post-its. It's really a general thing because I look at historical novels and think HOW THE HELL DO THEY DO THAT? :D
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[identity profile] ongiara.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:39 pm (UTC)
Yeah well, post-its and movies probably won't mix that well ^^

HOW THE HELL DO THEY DO THAT?
I second that.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:46 pm (UTC)
See? ;)

Besides, when they wear clothes in a film it usually doesn't tell about the material or how the clothes differ in different classes etc....
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[identity profile] ongiara.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:48 pm (UTC)
when they wear clothes in a film it usually doesn't tell about the material or how the clothes differ in different classes
Good point. Let's scratch the movie idea. ;p
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:50 pm (UTC)
:P

See? I'm screwed! :D
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[identity profile] fluttering-by.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:07 pm (UTC)
Google is nice. Depending on what you're looking for, so can wikipedia be - not necessarily as a reliable source, but it's a place to start that will almost always give you pointers on what to look for elsewhere. Or even the actual information you need, if accuracy and minuscule details aren't important.

I ask my flist too - my friends are great at suggesting things, even if they don't necessarily know anything about that specific thing.

I'll be writing a dissertation during the spring, and I know I'll be looking in certain databases and at literature at the school's library, but yes. Trying to filter out what you need, and knowing where to look for those important details you do need, make me want to tear my hair out sometimes. And that paper's gonna need a lot proper research to back up every little claim and nugget of information >.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:09 pm (UTC)
Exactly. Maybe I just choose too difficult topics but...finding the details you do need is tricky, and I don't seem to be very good at finding it.

Good luck with your dissertation!
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[identity profile] fluttering-by.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:16 pm (UTC)
It's a lot more work with books, but unless I'm looking in the databases at school, which only hold articles on "medical stuff", I much prefer books to the internet, because it means I don't have to first get rid of the porn, then the adverts (of all kinds, not just porn), then silly blogs and personal sites, and the maybe I may find something - if it's serious enough, and not the work of a mum or dad or giggling teen.

I may need to flip through a ton of books, searching references and whatnot, but sometimes, that's better:/

Thank you! Believe me, you're not the only one struggling with this:
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:19 pm (UTC)
Very true. I'll always take a book over the internet. It's just... the fact that a book has been published to me is also some kind of prove that there is actually something substantial and varified in there :-) (And God, how I hate going through personal blogs etc. first ...)

*hugs* I'm sure you'll do great :)
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[identity profile] fluttering-by.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:22 pm (UTC)
Exactly. It's a shame we'll be using mostly articles for our dissertations, as they're the ones most up to date. Books can be good for in-depth stuff on facts that have been around for some time, but we'll be going for the new studies, which means a bunch of articles and searches and wading through random finds. They did give two lectures on how to best use the databases and stuff this semester, but it's a lot harder than they make it out to be.

I'll certainly do my best! :) Good luck with yours too!
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:25 pm (UTC)
Ah, I see. And yes, true. It always seems so easy when they teach you how to use that stuff.

Thanks! :)
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[identity profile] fluttering-by.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:28 pm (UTC)
They just bring up search engines and click around and say "do this and this and then you can try this or that and bingo! you got a really useful place to go!" and then of course you try that when you next need to do some research next time, and uh. No. Not a chance.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:32 pm (UTC)
Hee, yeah. Been there, done that :)
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[identity profile] annj-g80.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:32 pm (UTC)
little_details, wer-weiss-was.de, answers.yahoo.com or wikipedia. That's where I normaly find my answers. If I don't, I just post a question and get the answers delivered free house. :-)
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:37 pm (UTC)
Hee :D I'll try to remember those links.
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[identity profile] junalele.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:34 pm (UTC)
I pretty much gave up on the internet as source for my research in scientific things. But that's probably because my topics tend to be too specific. Mongolian animal tales? Travelogues on Mongolia? Yeah, no.

In terms of scientific research I can highly recommend the MLA (Modern Language Association?). It's a biliographical data-bank which has every title (books and articles) on literature and stuff. It's awesome but only accessable from libraries.

For research for fics. General, every-day infos. I would actually try literature of the time. Because you're right, scientific research mostly doesn't focus on this area. Or yes, the internet. Though I'm never to successful with stuff like this either. *shrugs helplessy*
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 06:38 pm (UTC)
I tend to have really specific topics too so I feel your pain :)

I've just started getting acquainted with the MLA but I'll be back for testing again on Tuesday.

For research for fics. General, every-day infos. I would actually try literature of the time.

Hmm, actually, not such a bad idea. Thank you!
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[identity profile] junalele.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 08:12 pm (UTC)
MLA is really great. And there is a related database for film, too.
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[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_bookchick/ on October 4th, 2008 11:17 pm (UTC)
Ich find ja nie was in der MLA *lol*, aber habt ihr an eurer Uni nicht vielleicht so einen VPN-Client, den ihr zuhause auf dem PC starten könnt und dann darüber in die MLA etc. reingeht? So kann ich viele dieser ganzen Dienste auch von zuhause aus nutzen.
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[identity profile] alias_chick.livejournal.com on October 4th, 2008 07:41 pm (UTC)
Hmm.. I know for papers I don't use google or wikipedia because like you said, though reliable for general stuff, it is useless for specifics as well as it's not always right.

As for fics and stuff, I would recommend reading literature from the time. The language usage usage typically reflects their vocabulary and perhaps unwittingly societal values, customs and norms. As well, maybe look at papers of the time. They may be old, but it reflects knowledge that would help perhaps for mindframe? I know I had to read some genetics and anthropology papers that were ground-breaking at the time, and it was fascinating to go into these people's minds and try to see it from their POV.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 5th, 2008 03:39 pm (UTC)
The problem is, if my story's set in the US I doubt that we'll have old newspapers here ;-) But I'll look into literature--good advice. Thanks! :D
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[identity profile] alias_chick.livejournal.com on October 5th, 2008 04:21 pm (UTC)
Hmm.. I was thinking like academic papers, but I don't think major journals were established in the 19th Century (unless if you know a paper you're looking for), but I know if you're looking for 20th Cent stuff, most journals for most fields were established early to mid 20th century.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 14th, 2008 07:24 am (UTC)
Okay *facepalm* That makes sense of course.
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[identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_bookchick/ on October 4th, 2008 11:15 pm (UTC)
Also, Diana Gabaldon wurde auch mal gefragt, wie sie vorgeht, wenn sie ihre historischen Romane schreibt, und sie meinte, sie schreibt einfach drauflos und wenn sie irgendeine Information braucht, schaut sie direkt dann nach, nicht schon ewig vorher, oder baut das später ein. Sie meint, das wichtigste ist, den Plot gut aufzubauen, die historischen Fakten kann man auch hinterher einsetzen und spezifizieren und dann notfalls kleine Details entsprechend abändern.

Ich sehe das auch so - mir würde das total den Spaß an der Sache nehmen, wenn ich erstmal ewig über die bestimmte Zeit recherchieren müsste, bevor ich auch nur ein Wort der eigentlichen Geschichte geschrieben habe, da hätte ich schon gar keinen Bock mehr aufs Schreiben.

Aber: Findest du zu den Sachen, die du da so aufgelistet hast, echt nichts im Internet? Kann ich mir gar nicht vorstellen, so tiefgehende Sachen sind das ja nun eigentlich nicht, da muss sich doch was finden lassen...

In dem Bücherforum, in dem ich bin, habe ich neulich ein cooles Buch empfohlen bekommen, das ich mir bald holen will: Daniel Pool - What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens Knew: From Fox Hunting to Whist-The Facts of Daily Life in Nineteenth-Century England. Und weil ich ja eh so ein England-Fan bin und da auch am liebsten drüber schreibe, hab ich mir gleich noch mehr Bücher zu dem Thema rausgesucht:

Liza Picard:
- Elizabeth's London: Everyday Life in Elizabethan London
- Restoration London: Everyday Life in the 1660s
- Dr. Johnson's London: Everyday Life in London in the Mid 18th Century
- Victorian London

Und von der Art Bücher gibts ja noch massig andere...
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 5th, 2008 03:42 pm (UTC)
Hmmm, den Ansatz finde ich aber problematisch. Ich meine, man muss ja nicht vorher ein Geschichtsstudium ablegen aber sich in das Thema einlesen sollte man schon...

Findest du zu den Sachen, die du da so aufgelistet hast, echt nichts im Internet? Kann ich mir gar nicht vorstellen, so tiefgehende Sachen sind das ja nun eigentlich nicht, da muss sich doch was finden lassen...

Vielleicht google ich auch nur völlig falsch, aber ich hab mal vergeblich versucht im Internet Informationen darüber zu finden, durch was für Komplikationen man bei einem Beinbruch im Rollstuhl landen kann und...nix gefunden. Gerade für Medizinisches bist du im Internet echt am ARsch.

Oooooh, die Bücher klingen gut! Die pack ich auf meinen Wunschzettel, danke!
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[identity profile] ledasdaughter.livejournal.com on October 5th, 2008 08:33 am (UTC)
first of all...for writing an academic paper, the internet should be off limits. It's about books, and if you search right, you'll find what you're looking for. Especially if you write about the 19th and 20th century...way too many books have been written about these periods, and there's a million books on Victorian life alone. What always helps is Gutenberg.org, where you can download ebooks that have no copyright. There you'll find thousands of contemporary books.
Little questions concerning health etc can be looked up in these annual reports on british Life or Britain...they contain a number of statistics on basically anything.
And is there such a thing as a too theoretical secondary work? You'll just have to read your way through these too...and you'll find all your answers. And if now, you can always get books from other libraries all over Germany as well.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 5th, 2008 03:45 pm (UTC)
Hmm, I don't think that's necessarily true. If you use a website that's been run by a special department of a university (for example projects in Middle High German) I don't see the problem in using that.

Gutenberg.org is more fiction than non-fiction books, I thought?

And is there such a thing as a too theoretical secondary work?

If you're just going for facts in fictional writing (average wages/ technical standards etc.) I think books can be too theoretical :)

Thanks for the help!


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[identity profile] ledasdaughter.livejournal.com on October 5th, 2008 04:12 pm (UTC)
yeah, I mean it's always possible to check out university webpages and bibliographies but you have to be careful with all other pages. Wikipedia is nice to get ideas from but you shoul always check the citations and then get the books they are citing just to be on the safe side. Our library has quite a lot of books on your topic I believe...www.ub.uni-leipzig.de
maybe you can find something there?
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 14th, 2008 07:20 am (UTC)
Thank you! I'll have a look at it :)
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[identity profile] pola-bear.livejournal.com on October 5th, 2008 01:53 pm (UTC)
Do you know about Google Scholar?: http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=victorian+fabric

You can search for relavent articles with it, hope that helps.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 5th, 2008 03:45 pm (UTC)
Oh! I didn't know about that, thank you!
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[identity profile] ledasdaughter.livejournal.com on October 5th, 2008 04:13 pm (UTC)
oh, and I forgot. Since you're enrolled at a University you should be able to gain access to jstor.com. They have amazing articles on everything!
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 14th, 2008 07:20 am (UTC)
jstor? *notes down*
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[identity profile] catalana.livejournal.com on October 6th, 2008 12:27 pm (UTC)
If there are any re-enactment groups doing the period you're interested in, they're usually great resources for that everyday stuff, because *someone* will have researched it. *grin*
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on October 14th, 2008 07:19 am (UTC)
Heh...question is, are there re-enactment groups in Germany? I need to find out. Thanks for the help! :)
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[identity profile] lomer.livejournal.com on October 29th, 2008 02:33 am (UTC)
I could find out for your what clothing was made of in the 19th century. Hell, if you give me an exact year I can probably find even more precise info for you.

As for being arrested, I can tell you the process for a juvenile but not an adult. (I was an actor in a training film for cops and I got to experience all the joy of being arrested with none of the record. And they used real cops who sometimes would forget that we were ACTORS. Such fun!)

Personally I use a combination of talking to people, googling, and going to the library. It usually helps me to narrow things down if I think of the types of people who'd be interested in that info. For clothing choices, I imagine costumers would want to know the exact details so they could recreate pieces. For social practices, I'd look in the psychology sections of libraries.

If there's a university nearby, it'll probably be more helpful then your local library. Students are constantly researching utterly random things so there's great resources and usually someone there can point you in a decent direction.

I also love the little_details community.

I've gotten very good at research, not from writing, but from the character development process of acting. Those little details are just as important to actors as to writers. I want to know just how much my female character from 1827 would defer to her husband. How much leadway do I have for defiance in subtext? I want to know what types of clothes they wore so I can make informed choices about movement. I want to know the dialect of the character. I want to know which words are IMPORTANT. (For example a mom might choose to use a teenager's slang in order to make a connection with her child. I need to know that the words she's using are actually mimicking her child's and not something she'd say with her peers.)

This probably isn't terribly helpful. But yeah, if you need something random researched feel free to ask. I have wicked awesome google-fu and I'd be happy to attempt to help. *g*
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on November 30th, 2008 09:38 am (UTC)
Sorry it took me so long to reply to your comment *facepalm*

First of all, thank you for your advice and suggestions. You're an actor? That's so cool! And I can see how research would be just as important for an actor as for a writer, makes perfect sense :D

As for asking specialists, I'm always a bit nervous about that. I'm very shy when it comes to approaching people about favours, so I'm not sure I could bring myself to. Though I'm certain it's the best way to get precise answers.

This probably isn't terribly helpful. But yeah, if you need something random researched feel free to ask. I have wicked awesome google-fu and I'd be happy to attempt to help. *g*

Haha, that would be great! Let's unite our google-fus!

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[identity profile] lomer.livejournal.com on November 30th, 2008 06:06 pm (UTC)
Yep I'm an actor. *g* Regarding specialists, I figure they went to school for quite some time to learn about what types of dyes were used to dye linen in 1846. When you go to school to learn about obscure things, nothing makes you happier then having someone actually be interested in your knowledge.

If you ever want to know about stage combat, Lessac vocal training, Laban movement analysis, or the daily life of a professional actor, feel free to bug me about it. Those are my more obscure areas of knowledge.
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