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legoline
legoline
07 February 2008 @ 01:02 pm
Meta, Of A Sort, About Vampires In Literature & On Screen  
Going through the book store today something occurred to me. And it concerns vampires. So here's a few thoughts.

There seems to be a silent understanding that in both television, film and literature there will be a male vampire and a woman or girl attracted to him (or if she's not attracted to him, she teams up with him at least). Everywhere you look there are stories based on that principle--there are the Blood Books by Tanya Huff and the tv show Blood Ties which is based on the books, there's Twilight by Stephanie Meyer, don't forget tv shows like Moonlight and Angel and even if you go a hundred years back, you will find the same scheme in Bram Stoker's Dracula.

I'm not saying all these stories are the same, because they are not, but I do think it's weird the man always gets to be the vampire, and the woman to be the mortal.


My guess is that stories like that are primary written for women or girls, probably because let's face it, especially in literature girls read more than boys do. Until they grow up when things balance out more.

In television those vampire-meets-mortal stories seem to address women mostly, too. Why else would we get all those half-naked scenes with David Boreanaz or Alex O'Loughlin? (Not that I'm complaining or anything ;-) )

So we want good looking, mysterious and dangerous vampires. Vampires who will eventually suck your blood. The kiss of a vampire has always been something very intimate and also very erotic. I guess the sole reasons why Anne Rice wrote her Chronicles was so that she could have hot men sucking each other's blood :-)

Women have always felt attracted by poor tortured souls who've seen too much in their lives already (we dig angst ;-) ), and in the case of vampires they still happen to look good because they don't age. It worked in the early 19th century with Lord Byron and it still works today. I'm no exception to the rule, I always instantly sympathise with characters like that.

What I wonder is: would this also work the other way round? If the girl was to get the poor tortured soul meeting a young mortal man? Could that ever be successful in literature or on television? Has it ever been successful and I just don't know of it? Would women bother to watch, or would they rather retreat to Twilight and Angel?

And: could men ever be the demographic target of stories like that?
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[identity profile] mariaalejandra.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 12:13 pm (UTC)
Interesting . . . hmm I shall mull on this when I am not about to fall over from insane Bio and let you know, though I do think it is possible.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:48 pm (UTC)
Yuck! Bio! :)
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[identity profile] smallship1.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 12:50 pm (UTC)
There have been films with female vamp central characters (Nadja, The Kiss), but for some reason they're never played as sympathetically. There's a belief (not entirely unfounded) that men enjoy watching two women encountering each other in a sexual or quasi-sexual manner, which may go some way to account for the recent increase in portrayals of lesbian couples who both just happen to look attractive to men (*coughWillowcoughTaracough*, and see especially how they were portrayed in Xander's dream in "Restless" for how Joss was completely aware of that) but I think the industry is still too male-dominated to sanction a woman being shown to be a straight sexual or quasi-sexual predator *and* sympathetic at the same time. (Come on, someone, prove me wrong.)
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:46 pm (UTC)
I think the industry is still too male-dominated to sanction a woman being shown to be a straight sexual or quasi-sexual predator *and* sympathetic at the same time.

I think that might be true. Part of why I like watching Moonlight is that Beth isn't your typical damsel in distress and Mick and her are equals of some sort, but still, he's the vampire not her.

(Come on, someone, prove me wrong.)

I second that.
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[identity profile] gehirnstuerm.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 12:59 pm (UTC)
Mmmmh, I know "The Hunger" by Whitley Strieber was quite successful (there's a movie, too). I don't remember much of the book *cough*, but the main character is a female vampire who's tortured by loss etc. Mmmmh.

But I really don't think men could ever be the demographic target of stories like that. Let's face it: Most men really don't dig angst (generalizing here). They can bear it up to a certain extend, but then it's enough. I see it when I watch Supernatural or Buffy with my boyfriend (shows he likes a lot). While I love character development and relish a little angst and drama, my boyfriend gets bored because he really likes the MOTW stuff and the action.
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[identity profile] gehirnstuerm.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 01:02 pm (UTC)
Oh, and a vampire movie for guys would include either much action, blood and maybe ripping off body parts or a busty vampire chick in leather which gets it on with another equally busty companion. OR all of the above ;)
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:42 pm (UTC)
Like John Carpenter's Vampires? :-)
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:42 pm (UTC)
But I really don't think men could ever be the demographic target of stories like that.

That's what I assumed. Which is probably why the writers think, "If we make it for women anyway, let's throw in a hot male vampire." (And you know, I'm not complaining :-) )

I think it's a bit funny that it's obviously such a genre for women.

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[identity profile] snuffkin.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 01:19 pm (UTC)
Well, the first Anne Rice novel I read was Pandorra and that one is about a female Vampire. And I think a young boy fell in love with her and then she made him a vampire? But in the end she went back to the vampire who made her ... It's been a long time since I read that one. I think her character was pretty strong too, but it all began with her falling in love with the Vampire who made her, then the vampire vanished and through that she had to find her inner strength. So that goes with your image of the woman being more or less the "victim" in the book.

As to your question: On impulse I would answer: No. I don't know why, but I don't think the same concept would work for them by just turning around the female and male parts. Boys in general are not that much into romance - or at least that's what I experienced.

BUT! I think a fantasy novel with a female vampire as a main character and a male character as a love interest could potentially work given the right plot.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:38 pm (UTC)
But even Pandorra isn't Anne Rice's most famous or successful novel, right?

Well, isn't any book including a vampire fantasy? *frowns*
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[identity profile] snuffkin.livejournal.com on February 8th, 2008 01:17 am (UTC)
But even Pandorra isn't Anne Rice's most famous or successful novel, right?
No, even though I think it's one of her better books :/

Well, isn't any book including a vampire fantasy?

True *lol* I just thought of most of them as "Romance" *g* But what I meant to say was, that I think it could work if the romance part would step more into the background and the fantasy/adventure part more in the foreground.

It's the same with all these cheap historical/fantasty romance novels where the girl doesen't want to marry the guy who is very good looking but also seems to be an asshole at first and in the end they have lots of sex and fall in love *lol* But with variation this stuff can work. One of my favourite books (A Song of Ice and Fire) had this female main character who get's married of to some desert prince. At first she is afraid of him, then she falls in love with him, then he dies... That's basically what happens to her in the first 3 or 4 books but still every guy I know who read that book likes her. And that's I think because she's a very strong female character, even though she started out in this cliché position.


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[identity profile] unhobbityhobbit.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 01:22 pm (UTC)
Poor tortured soul vampires annoy me. "Oh, oh woe, I have to kill to eat!" STFU and starve. Seriously, give me a vampire who's evil and loving it.

But anyway, I don't read much vampire stuff though I did try to write some once, HA FAIL. I did watch Underworld, though. That had a woman vampire as a main character (who was actually kind of tortured, but she was all vengeful about it) and she met an innocent mortal man who had no idea what was going on (and later became oh so not-mortal, but anyway). I enjoyed it.
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ext_33206[identity profile] roadrunner1896.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 04:39 pm (UTC)
If I weren't too lazy to dig up the Asher caps from my photobucket account, I would come and spam you now, because you didn't say they can't be gay wusses hiding behind their sister. Consider yourself lucky that I try to get my monthly post together at the moment. ;)
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:36 pm (UTC)
Someone else also mentioned Underworld, it really seems to be the one successful exception to the rule :-)

I like poor tortured souls as long as they're not overdoing it.
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[identity profile] jodimuse.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 09:14 pm (UTC)
I liked the first Underworld ... Was entertained by the second but wasn't all that thrilled with it. But the female vampire character in that franchise IS really very powerful.

Actually, if you like romance and vampires (and while some or a lot of you will not, some of you might), I'd highly recommend a series by Charlaine Harris. The first book is called Dead Until Dark. Sookie Stackhouse (yeah - quite the name, huh? (laugh)) is a telepath, not a vampire, but she deals with a lot of vampires, various shape shifters and all sorts of creatures. And she deals well. A strong female character - though it takes her a short time to GET there (there is always a period of self-discovery in these books, isn't there?). There's also no settled romance in these. There are a number of books and I think she's dating a guy or two, but hasn't quite made up her mind about who is precisely "Mr. Right" - so it keeps me interested. ;)

Also, it's set in the American south (a small town in Louisiana, actually) - so for those of you in Germany, it might actually be somewhat exotic. ;) (It was for *me*!)

There are some good books out there with strong female characters in the genre, you just have to do some searching. ;) Good luck!
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 09:22 pm (UTC)
Oh, that sounds intriguing! I will have to look out for these books, thank you for the tip! I might just go and chase them down on amazon now to put on my wishlist :-)

Also, it's set in the American south (a small town in Louisiana, actually) - so for those of you in Germany, it might actually be somewhat exotic. ;) (It was for *me*!)


Since I'm a bit fascinated by the American south (I think I read "Tom Sawyer" too many times when I was younger :-) ) that actually sounds quite promising and very exotic :-)

ETA: and that character's name is worth an award, it's wonderful *laughs*
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[identity profile] alias_chick.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 02:28 pm (UTC)
I almost see the male vamp and mortal woman as something that falls into the classic 'beauty and the beast' formula. Now, I'm not overtly familiar with a lot of vamp stories, but I'm gonna give my cent or 2 worth of observation. It (IMO) appeals to both males and females because the male is dominant, while the female is typically emotionally dominant and helping out Mr Alpha male deal with things. The guys like the action and vamp stuff, while females see the emotional and romantic side typically, a good appeal to both sexes. I think with the female vampire and mortal male love it is still a love story, but now the female is the one with the emotional weakness that the male 'fixes,' but is physically dominant which may not seem so bad, but the research shows that when females challenge males for dominance it's a turn-off for the most part, because it's more like they're a competitor than a possible mate. Sorry.. I'm taking a class in evolutionary psych of beauty and attractiveness... I could honestly blather on... *ponders.. this could make such an interesting topic! *still has to pick an essay topic
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:34 pm (UTC)
Sorry.. I'm taking a class in evolutionary psych of beauty and attractiveness... I could honestly blather on...

Don't apologise! I hadn't thought about it that way, but it really makes a great deal of sense! So interesting!
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[identity profile] alias_chick.livejournal.com on February 8th, 2008 02:15 am (UTC)
:)
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[identity profile] coffee-girl.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 03:18 pm (UTC)
Du hast absolut recht, aber ich hab auch noch nie wirklich darüber nachgedacht.
Natürlich muss man sich nur fragen, wer denn die Zielgruppe von diesen Büchern bzw. TV-Shows ist.
Ich bin auch schrecklich verliebt in Vampir-Bücher und den Serien, und natürlich lese ich auch zu gern von dem gutaussehenden geheimnisvollen Typen. Wer würde nicht gern mal so einem begegnen.

Allerdings ist die Idee die Rollen mal umzudrehen, sehr verlockend. Jetzt muss nur noch jemand das machen.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:31 pm (UTC)
Ich denke halt die Zielgruppe sind in erster Linie Frauen und Mädchen, und Vampire haben nun mal einen gewissen Sexappeal. Ich meine, ich bin dagegen ja auch nicht gewappnet :-) (Und Buffy auch nicht, wenn man an die Draculafolge denkt...)

Ich frage mich, ob diese Anziehung zu Vampiren etwas typisch weibliches ist...
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[identity profile] coffee-girl.livejournal.com on February 8th, 2008 01:50 pm (UTC)
Oh ich denke auch Männer finden weibliche Vampire durchaus sehr erotisch. Auf jeden Fall sagen das einige die ich kenne.
Aber Männer schauen halt einfach nicht regelmäßig eine TV Serie an, das ist einfach so....

Wenn ich aber darüber nachdenke, würde ich eine Show mit einem weiblichen Vampir, sehr sehr gerne anschauen!
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ext_33206[identity profile] roadrunner1896.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 04:37 pm (UTC)
Pretty much what [livejournal.com profile] alias_chick said.

On top of that, I guess it is pretty hard to come up with a female lead vampire without making her come across like a bitch or a slut. Or both even. Usually women won't get too invested in characters like that I think. It is hard to identify yourself with them.

And then you have to make the guy not look like a wuss to get a male audience to identify with a guy who falls in love with a vampire and doesn't just want her for one night because she is hot.

I think it is just much easier to get it done the male vamp/female human way. I'd really like to see a show where it works the other way around.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:28 pm (UTC)
Also very true. I tink creating characters like that would be truly challenging, which is probably why sadly hardly anyone ever tries...
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ext_16240[identity profile] falling-home.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 05:40 pm (UTC)
Well, there's Lost Boys where Star is the (half)vampire and Michael the innocent human. And then there's Near Dark where it's almost the same. There are also a lot of b-movies which use a similar theme. Most of them were made in the 80s, but they were made for a male audience mainly.
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[identity profile] kahvi-elf.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 06:36 pm (UTC)
I thought about those films, too. Plus the films "Innocent Blood" and "The Hunger" or the classic vampire novel "Carmilla" by Le Fanu.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:26 pm (UTC)
Isn't "Carmilla" one of the Gothic novels?

The thing is, I'm sure there are films and books where the roles are exchanged, but it does seem like the successful mainstream ones generally go with the male vampire/ mortal woman pairing.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:27 pm (UTC)
I have never seen LOst Boys, actually. I don't doubt that films like these are out there, but like you say it's probably a lot of B movies and less successful stuff, while the mainstream productions tend to go with a male vampire and a mortal woman.
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ext_3626[identity profile] frogspace.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:45 pm (UTC)
I have never seen LOst Boys, actually.

It's about two boys who have to kill their mother's evil vampire boyfriend (mortal woman/male vampire) and his "sons". I don't remember if they are really his sons or just random young men he turned into vampires, but I don't think it matters. The evil vampire boyfriend wants to turn the brothers too, so that they can all be one happy family. Star is the only female member of his vampire gang and the older brother's love interest. I think she is saved from her vampirism when the brothers kill the evil head vampire? Or something like that.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:50 pm (UTC)
Am I weird because I think it sounds interesting? Or well, I've heard it's an 80's classic so maybe I just want to see it anyway :-)
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ext_16240[identity profile] falling-home.livejournal.com on February 8th, 2008 11:26 am (UTC)
Lost Boys and Near Dark were huge successes. They were mainstream productions, especially Lost Boys. Also, a lot of stuff that we today would classify as b-movies was also really successful in the 80s - even if it was direct-to-video. I'd even go as far and say that the male vampire/female human redemption concept on film is something that came up (as mainstream) in the 90s. Before that vampire flicks (and many "horror" movies in general) were mainly targeted at a male audience.

I think the first tv-production that turned the concept around was Forever Knight.
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[identity profile] junalele.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 05:42 pm (UTC)
Yep. Anne Rice certainly breaks with the tradition with her homo-erotic books.

But all in all. Yep. I think the reason for the roles being as they are, is our social structure. Men like to see themselves as sexual predators with women their very willing prey. And women like the idea of being courted passionately, rape phantasies might play in as well. And of course, the concept of immortality and having the power to go against society's rules - that never hurt a story. Heh.
I maybe should have made that men and women liked the idea as gender roles are slowly changing which is probably why in recent times Anne Rice could write as she did and be immensely successful. And yes, those movies with female vampires in the role of the sexually dominant predator of the...erh 1970s, I think. And Buffy and Angel - also a break with the tradition as Angel is not a predator in the traditional vampiric sense. He's...well, like neutered there. Heh. Which plays into the role of the modern sensitive lover.

Fascinating question, this.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:25 pm (UTC)
And Buffy and Angel - also a break with the tradition as Angel is not a predator in the traditional vampiric sense.

Neither is Mick St. John from Moonlight. They're both poor tortured souls, somewhat mysterious, who hate being what they are. And I don't know, I think many women have this "I could save him!" complex, which many stories thrive upon.

Also I think there is a difference between just showing female vampires sucking men's blood, and creating a deep tragic character that needs to be saved by a man...

I'm so glad people find these thoughts interesting. Hee /random
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[identity profile] junalele.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 11:58 pm (UTC)
And I don't know, I think many women have this "I could save him!" complex, which many stories thrive upon.
Oh, very good point. Absolutely.

Also I think there is a difference between just showing female vampires sucking men's blood, and creating a deep tragic character that needs to be saved by a man...
Yep. And I do think, here we have another difference: if the vampire is male it's not about the woman saving him, but about her being seduced by him and her own sexuality. While the other way around. Yep. She needs to be saved which basically, transports the same gender roles as the other way around, don't you think?
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medie: blood ties - vicki - badass[personal profile] medie on February 7th, 2008 05:57 pm (UTC)
Well, Blood Ties is somewhat of a trickier example, as book canon might have have eventually come into play with the tv series. In that case, if it had, then it's really all about Vicki's journey. But, saying more, I think, would terribly spoil people who would watch.

And I think it does work. It certainly has worked with Underworld and Selene. Michael does come into his own powers, but the dynamic - according to the director - was intended to take the original dynamic of male vampire w. special female mortal and completely swap it on its head. That was, for him, one of the attractions of doing the story. He finds the changed dynamic fascinating and thought other people would as well. I know, for me, as much as I find Michael interesting, I'm all about Selene.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:20 pm (UTC)
SPOILERS FOR BLOOD TIES IN HERE
Well, Blood Ties is somewhat of a trickier example, as book canon might have have eventually come into play with the tv series. In that case, if it had, then it's really all about Vicki's journey.

I must admit I stopped reading somewhere in the second book because I just couldn't stand Vicki and the plots weren't exciting enough to keep me reading. Ergo I never watched "Blood Ties" either. But yes, the Blood Books are the reason why I mentioned above that sometimes they just team up instead of feeling incredibly attracted to each other. Though from what I've read at least, Vicki did feel attracted to Henry. And it's still a mortal woman and a male vampire which I thought is pretty interesting.

I haven't seen either Underworld , but I think it's very cool someone dared to change the dynamics.
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medie: blood ties - vicki - badass[personal profile] medie on February 7th, 2008 08:35 pm (UTC)
Re: SPOILERS FOR BLOOD TIES IN HERE
Oh yeah. Vicki totally was attracted to Henry. She, Henry, and Mike totally have a OT3 vibe going on most of the time.

The big thing with Blood Ties is the gradual development of Vicki into Henry's world. Culminating in an incident where she's mortally wounded and Henry turns her. They leave Toronto for Vancover where they spend that year together ('off screen' as it were) that all vampires and newbies spend as she learns the ropes. Then she returns to Toronto where she and Celluci move in together, essentially turning the dynamic on its head. The final book has Vicki & Mike traveling to Vancouver to help Henry with a problem. In some ways, Vicki is a lot more comfortable with the vampire life than Henry. She's quite happy to ignore the territory thing (at least to try and get past the instinct) which Henry has never managed to do. At least, not until Vicki starts pushing him into it.

I haven't finished the final book yet, or the Blood & Smoke series (Henry in Vancouver with Tony) but I am enjoying the dynamic.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:40 pm (UTC)
Re: SPOILERS FOR BLOOD TIES IN HERE
Culminating in an incident where she's mortally wounded and Henry turns her.

Oooh, now here's a turn I wouldn't have expected. That's actually pretty neat :-) So they stay more friends than lovers? (Also Vancouver! Yay! *wants to go to Vancouver*)

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[identity profile] ongiara.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:12 pm (UTC)
I guess the sole reasons why Anne Rice wrote her Chronicles was so that she could have hot men sucking each other's blood
You know, this sentence totally made my brain drift off to hot places there for a minute *wipes away at drool*

Your questions are indeed very interesting and it even sounds like a topic for a real interesing paper. I can't think of a counterexample either. In fact, I'd loved to see an adaption where the woman is the haunted, dark angel just to see if it would be interesting. And as weird as it sounds, it also makes me think of Ruby's character. Probably because most of the appeal stems from the fact that she's so mysterious and dark and an outside, being haunted by her own past. Now, I know she's just a minor character and not a vampire either but I guess the general cue is there. Intersting topic indeed.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:16 pm (UTC)
You know, this sentence totally made my brain drift off to hot places there for a minute

J2 AU anyone?

And as weird as it sounds, it also makes me think of Ruby's character. Probably because most of the appeal stems from the fact that she's so mysterious and dark and an outside, being haunted by her own past.

Not weird at all. She lacks the teeth perhaps but she really is a demon, like a vampire. I think the difference may be that we haven't seen her real "tortured soul" part, because as Kripke says, she keeps her cards pretty close. But I think the potential is there.
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[identity profile] ongiara.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:25 pm (UTC)
J2 AU anyone?
Hot boy on boy action in general^^

we haven't seen her real "tortured soul" part, because as Kripke says, she keeps her cards pretty close.
I agree. And you could see how she didn't want Sam and Dean to know about her giving herself to the witch when she was human and ending her up where she is now, so I guess she's carrying around some pain. And maybe, this journey she's on is a bit of a try to make amends?
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on February 7th, 2008 08:33 pm (UTC)
Hot boy on boy action in general^^

J2 AU ANYONE??? *cough* If only I read J2

And maybe, this journey she's on is a bit of a try to make amends?

I'm still not sure she actually wants to make amends. Actually, when she told Dean she wanted Sam to be ready to fight the war I was wondering whether she was implying that he lead the demon army.
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