19 May 2008 @ 04:10 pm
People Who Know More About Gothic/Horror Films And Literature Than I Do...  
...I might be desperately needing your help.

I've decided to write my master's thesis on "Elements Of The Gothic In Modern Pop Culture", mostly because I attended a module on Gothic Novels and wrote a paper on Jane Austen's Northanger Abbey and thought it would be terribly interesting to see how certain mechanisms still are put to use in modern literature and film (and possibly, song), how certain themes still apply, what elements never really got out of fashion. Especially since recently there seems to be a new wave of horror/fantasy themed books and films coming out.

My problem is: I know more about classic Gothic literature than I do about modern one. In fact, I may have avoided horror films and literature so far in my life, simply because I have very weak nerves ;-) But oh, I really want to write my thesis about that topic. And here's where I need help.

I have no clue which modern films and books I should pick to analyse. Well, I do have a list of possible candidates but as of now, it's kind of short:



Books
Salem's Lot and The Shining (both Stephen King)
I did think about Anne Rice but it's, you know, Anne Rice

Films
Sleepy Hollow (the problem being that it's based on a classic Gothic story even though most of the plot was changed for the film)
Batman (I think this could be really interesting as it's not typically "horror" but certainly has elements. The problem--it's actually a comic)
Casper (Well. Least likely candidate, admittedly)
The Others (I've only heard about this film, not actually seen it)
And maybe, The Rocky Horror Picture Show.
I'm unsure about other classics like "The Excorcist" or "Poltergeist" because honestly, I think they might be too "old"?)

Short, I know.


My question: what candidates am I missing? What books and films should I check out? What would qualify? Especially books, because I'd like to have another author besides Stephen King. Ideas? Thoughts? If you could pick a horror film or book to be compared to classic Gothic, what would it be?

Every help is muchly appreciated!

Thank you in advance!
 
 
Current Mood: hopeful
 
 
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[identity profile] bardling.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 02:15 pm (UTC)
Um, I don't know what "classic gothic" is, or what you're trying to compare to, so not sure what I'd look at for modern stuff. (I only know "goth" as the term for black-dressed, often white-makeuped mostly youngsters... ;)
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 02:29 pm (UTC)
Gothic Novels is what we would translate to "Schauerliteratur" (It's called Gothic novel in English because they came up at a time when people started to be interested in medieval architecture etc. again rather than Renaissance and Classicism. It's a form of the Romanticism movement where emphasis is put on emotion rather than feeling. Because the novels were often set in medieval settings or places inspired by Gothic architecture they were called Gothic novels), or it's also called "Schwarze Romantik".

"Frankenstein" is a late Gothic novel, "Bram Stoker's Dracula" was highly influenced by it too. "Genuine" Gothic novels are "The Monk", "The Mysteries Of Udoplho" and "The Castle Of Otranto". "The Legend Of Sleepy Hollow" is an American example, and lots of Poe's stuff is rather Gothic too :-)

What I want to do is analyse how many of the typical elements (damsel in distress, haunted houses/castles, supernatural creatures, mysteries, obscure settings) are still used in modern horror :-)
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[identity profile] inderpal.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 02:24 pm (UTC)
Hmmm, I've not read it, but what about 'Twilight'? I mean, all I know that it is about a Vampire and it is not Anne Rice, but it is quite popular and the film is surrounded by quite the media buzz. Don't know if that is helpful though, I'm not quite sure what you are looking for.

Also, what about Supernatural, does that apply?
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 02:31 pm (UTC)
I kind of plan on mentioning Supernatural as a side note :-) I think Twilight might be too schmoopy, It think it's rather romance than creepy. I might mention that development though :-) Thank you!
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[identity profile] fluttering-by.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 02:25 pm (UTC)
How modern is modern? After approximately which year would they have been written?

I've not seen the newest Johnny Depp film, don't even remember the name (*ashamed*), but that barber guy... is that gothic enough? Or is it just... vaguely grey-ish and old fashioned clothes with lots of cool stuff laying around?
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 02:34 pm (UTC)
Well, both Stephen King novels I'm taking into consideration so far are mid-seventies, mostly because I can't come up with something newer :-/

Oh, Sweeny Todd right? Thing is, I think it's a remake but I'll make a mental note of it... :-)
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[identity profile] aryana-filker.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 02:26 pm (UTC)
Ju refers to her book "Das Obsidianherz" as a kind of gothic novel, and as much as I lerned from beta reading your paper on Northanger Abbey, "Das Obsidianherz" is very much like a gothic novel, although the stereotype characters are a bit... twisted. :)
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 02:37 pm (UTC)
Hm...with no disrespect to Ju because I'm sure her book is great, but I think it might be better if I picked something more "representative", I guess? As in...I hate to say it, but...popular. Arck. Now I sound like a meanie. *bites lip* (I still wouldn't mind reading it though ;-) )
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(no subject) - [identity profile] aryana-filker.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 05:44 am (UTC)
ext_16240[identity profile] falling-home.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 02:34 pm (UTC)
Hm. What about Underworld?
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 02:38 pm (UTC)
The film? Is it any good?


Ooooooooh...*has just had an epiphany and adds Van Helsing to list*
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(no subject) - [identity profile] falling-home.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 02:42 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 05:09 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] falling-home.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 02:51 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 05:09 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] mrgoodwraith.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 04:00 pm (UTC)
ext_3626[identity profile] frogspace.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 03:46 pm (UTC)
You should ask [livejournal.com profile] stabbim if she can get you a list of the stuff we were asked at Gatecamp. Saturday night's theme was "horror" and we were so bad at it. *shudders*

I'm unsure about other classics like "The Excorcist" or "Poltergeist" because honestly, I think they might be too "old"?)

They aren't older then the books you mention, aren't they? And what about TV series like Poltergeist the Legacy, Miracles, BtVS or comic series like The Sandman and all the other popular series? You say your thesis is on "Elements Of The Gothic In Modern Pop Culture", wouldn't it make sense then to look at modern pop culture and find the gothic elements there instead of searching for gothic stuff that might or might not be modern? At the top of my head I can think of recurring images like the woman in white (scary and/or insane and/or dead) in almost all of the popular stuff.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 05:11 pm (UTC)
True but I thought it would make more sense to get a broad overview of what kind of stuff is out there, and I don't have a clue about that. I figured it would make sense to start with the horror genre because that's most obviously influenced by Gothic...

Sandman is Gothic? Really? *puts it on list*
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(no subject) - [identity profile] mrgoodwraith.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 06:08 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] kahvi-elf.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 09:47 pm (UTC)
ext_7834[identity profile] mareen.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 04:07 pm (UTC)
Rebecca? Or is it too old? There is a more modern version than the Hitchcock movie, I think it's a BBC movie or mini series, but I've never really seen that one.

Maybe also check out The Haunting. There's a version starring Cathrine Zeta Jones, but there also should be an older movie from around the 1960s or 1970s of the same name.
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ext_7834[identity profile] mareen.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 04:11 pm (UTC)
You could also try to figure out how many gothic elements you'd find in M. Night Shyamalan's work, like The Sixth Sense, Signs and probably especially The Village.
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(no subject) - [identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 05:13 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 05:12 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] mareen.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 05:35 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 05:40 pm (UTC)
[identity profile] kahvi-elf.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 04:17 pm (UTC)
Films:
Gothika, In a dark place (based on Turn of the screw, there is also a film based on that novel from the late 80s with Julian Sands, the best film based on the book is The innocents an old b/w movie), The Village,Das Geisterschloß(dieses unsägliche Remake des Klassikers The Haunting), most Dracula films based on Stoker, Romasanta,Pakt der Wölfe, the Spanish film The devils backbone

Series: Geister by Lars von Trier, Dark Shadows, Kindred maybe?

Books: all the stuff by Tanya Huff, Poppy Z Bright, Laura K Hamillton, Charlaine Harris. And I often see a series of German books in the stores that all have "Biss" in the title. Seems to be a vampire-romance series.

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[identity profile] shironezumi.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 04:30 pm (UTC)
>>And I often see a series of German books in the stores that all have "Biss" in the title. Seems to be a vampire-romance series.
That's the infamous "Twilight".^^ And I don't know if that's what she needs, because it's more romance than gothic and there's stuff in it like that vampires can't go out in the sun because they're glittering in sunlight. oO
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(no subject) - [identity profile] kahvi-elf.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 08:32 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] shironezumi.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 08:22 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 05:15 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] kahvi-elf.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 08:37 pm (UTC)
[identity profile] mrgoodwraith.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 04:20 pm (UTC)
A few suggestions, depending on how old "modern" can be:

Literature: Almost anything by Shirley Jackson, but We Have Always Lived in the Castle in particular.

Films: "Psycho." "The Uninvited." "The Others" (the Nicole Kidman movie). Both versions of "The Haunting" (from a Shirley Jackson piece, actually) as well as "The Haunting of Hill House." The first four "Nightmare on Elm Street" films, especially the original. The low-budget classic "Carnival of Souls." Several of the more psychologically oriented Hammer films, such as "Paranoiac."

There's one film in particular that would be perfect for this, but I don't recall the title. It's a British production or has a British cast; a nanny is convinced that her two young charges are being visited and/or possessed by the spirits of an evil man and his lover who lived and died on the grounds of the mansion where the children live. I wouldn't want to watch that flick again, but it's very very Gothic.
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[identity profile] kahvi-elf.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 04:28 pm (UTC)
I think you are thinking about one of the films based on Turn of the screw:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055018/ or http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105659/

I totally forgot the Hill House films, they are quite gothic, I agree. Based on the novel by Shirley Jackson. Maybe also the book Hell House by Richard Matheson and the films based on it.
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(no subject) - [identity profile] mrgoodwraith.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 04:45 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 05:18 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] kahvi-elf.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 09:10 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 08:15 am (UTC)
[identity profile] mrgoodwraith.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 04:46 pm (UTC)
A couple more suggestions: The movie versions of "Bram Stoker's Dracula" and "Interview with a Vampire." The William Katt movie "House" (although it's at least as much comedy as horror). The Roger Corman/Vincent Price versions of "Pit and the Pendulum" and "The Masque of the Red Death."

Mervyn Peake's "Gormenghast" novels and their BBC adaptations have decidedly Gothic elements.

If you can go as far back as radio drama, many episodes of "Suspense," "Escape," "The Shadow," "Lights Out!", "Dark Fantasy," "The Weird Circle," and "The Hermit's Cave" are extremely Gothic.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 05:18 pm (UTC)
Wow--you know a lot about this genre. Thank you! :D
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(no subject) - [identity profile] mrgoodwraith.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 06:03 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] mrgoodwraith.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 06:14 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] kahvi-elf.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 09:26 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 08:22 am (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] mrgoodwraith.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 05:55 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 08:18 am (UTC)
[identity profile] shironezumi.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 04:52 pm (UTC)
I'm sorry to say this, but when I think about modern gothic novels, the first (and most important german) author that comes to mind is Wolfgang Hohlbein. (And even though he's repeating it to death, his basic idea and style aren't actually that bad.)
And, Anne Rice.^^;;;

(I just realised that I know a lot less gothic novels than I thought I would; most is actually WH and the rest is non-gothic fantasy or science-fiction. This (http://www.amazon.de/Ex-David-Ambrose/dp/3404143094/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211215772&sr=8-1) is a book I once got as birthday present and that deals in a quite interesting and unusual way with ghosts; but I don't know how popular/important it actually is.
Maybe I remember something more helpful later.)

Movies that were already suggested and I'd like to second are "Underworld" (1+2), "The Crow", "Sixth Sense" and "Pakt der Wölfe" ("Le pacte de loups").
There is also a very good movie adaption of a comic called "Constantine"; also about a demon hunter who's about to go to hell.^^
I'm unsure about "Highlander", though. But at least the first movie might contain quite a few gothic elements.
What about horror movies with christian themes? Then there'd be "God's Army" and "Stigmata".

There's also a pen & paper roleplaying game called "Vampires - The Masquerade", and a 90ies tv show based on it, "Kindred - The Embraced".

Also mentioned before was Lars von Triers "Geister". (Unfortunately I only know the american remake "Kingdom Hospital", but that was certainly interesting!)

ETA: hm, "Rocky Horror Picture Show"?

ETA2: "Edward Scissorhands", "Nightmare Before Christmas", "Corpses Bride" (and every other movie by Tim Burton?)
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 05:20 pm (UTC)
What about horror movies with christian themes? Then there'd be "God's Army" and "Stigmata".

Oooooh! Very cool! *adds to list*

I was thinking about Anne Rice but...hm. I don't know whether I should give her the honour of being subject of a master's thesis. ;-)

True about Tim Burton...that's what I was thinking. He's got Gothic elements in every movie he does, even "Big Fish".
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(no subject) - [identity profile] shironezumi.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 08:29 pm (UTC)
[identity profile] demonphoenix.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 06:07 pm (UTC)
Um... well if you don't mind delving into more of @ kiddie genre of horror/gothic D@rren Sh@n's stuff is pretty demented. He h@s @ pretty lose ide@ @s to wh@ts @ppori@te for his t@rget @udience @t le@st lol. @nyw@y you could include th@t @s liter@ture th@t h@s t@ken @ turn tow@rds t@rgeting 13-15 ye@r old boys.

http://www.darrenshan.com/demons/books/index.html

I re@lly c@n't think of @nything more gothic th@n th@t in novels th@t I h@ve re@d... the @uthor h@s @ thing for killing of m@in ch@r@cters too (@pp@rently) or @t the minimum isn't @fr@id of it.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 08:22 am (UTC)
I will definitely check him out, thank you!
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sibylle[personal profile] sibylle on May 19th, 2008 09:22 pm (UTC)
Hm hm hm hm I am late to the party, but, hmm, how about Sunshine by Robin McKinley? Though there is a not-small helping of romance there, too.
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sibylle[personal profile] sibylle on May 19th, 2008 09:24 pm (UTC)
And, hmm, what about Lovecraft? He's gothic, if anyone is, right?
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(no subject) - [identity profile] kahvi-elf.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 09:38 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 08:26 am (UTC)
(no subject) - [personal profile] sibylle on May 19th, 2008 09:27 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [personal profile] sibylle on May 19th, 2008 09:29 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [personal profile] sibylle on May 19th, 2008 09:31 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 08:23 am (UTC)
alchemise[personal profile] alchemise on May 19th, 2008 09:51 pm (UTC)
I would argue that Mark Danielewski's (yeah, the odds of that spelling being right are slim) House of Leaves is a great example of very modern, gothic horror. It would also be a very complex book to compare with class gothic works, especially regarding structure.

I'd also rec the Watch series by, um, some guy in Russia whose name I never remember. *facepalm* Night Watch, Day Watch, Twilight Watch and a new one that I don't recall the name of. There's some interesting gothic elements in them.

If you have any interest in modern adaptations of classic gothic, we had a cool discussion in a gothic lit class I once took on how Heart of Darkness becomes Apocalypse Now.

Oh, and the film Shadow of the Vampire is a great one, a modern gothic film about the creation of a classic gothic film (Nosferatu). Gods and Monsters does something similar about the guy who put Frankenstein on screen.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 08:29 am (UTC)
would argue that Mark Danielewski's (yeah, the odds of that spelling being right are slim) House of Leaves is a great example of very modern, gothic horror. It would also be a very complex book to compare with class gothic works, especially regarding structure.


Oh, I'd been meaning to read that! So it's complicated huh?But...hm, I like the idea because it's really new...

Oh, I've heard of the Watch series...*checks out*

Thank you!
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[identity profile] scarabaes.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 09:59 pm (UTC)
[livejournal.com profile] pandora_ios Der Rote Salon
(http://www.der-rote-salon.wildergarten.de/)
Might help.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 08:29 am (UTC)
Oh, thank you!
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[identity profile] kahvi-elf.livejournal.com on May 19th, 2008 10:06 pm (UTC)
The film "Gothic" by Ken Russell http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091142/
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 08:30 am (UTC)
Ich glaub den kenn ich sogar :-) Danke!
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[identity profile] nina-nicky.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 06:26 am (UTC)
Don't forget Interview with a Vampire. That's a great example, I think because of the overall tone and the questioning of what's right and what's wrong - even from the monster's point of view.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 08:09 am (UTC)
Yeah but Anne Rice....?
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(no subject) - [identity profile] nina-nicky.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 09:20 am (UTC)
(no subject) - [identity profile] mrgoodwraith.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 06:03 pm (UTC)
[identity profile] snarkyart.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 08:03 am (UTC)
First books that come to mind: Neil Gaiman - Coraline, and perhaps Poppy Z. Brite - Lost Souls. Not sure about that one, though.

I think you should definitely mention Buffy, because really, I think it set a trend in pop culture that wasn't there before.
Other TV shows: American Gothic, perhaps? Hehe. And maybe even Kindred - The Embraced.

Movies: Definitely Sweeney Todd (unless you want to mention this under "musicals"), Sleepy Hollow is a must, and I don't see why you can't use it. It's a good example of how the same stories are still gripping audiences today. There's a very good BBC adaption of Northanger Abbey that came out last year, I think. Maybe Blade? Not sure about this one. Also, The Corpse Bride, The Village, definitely The Crow. "Vincent" is a very cool animated short film by Tim Burton that plays with Gothic elements. Can't think of anything else right now, only that I think not all horror movies/books/shows can automatically be classified as modern "Gothic". Do you know what I mean? I think especially some of the more "drastic" ones might not even qualify.
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One Evil Muffin[identity profile] legoline.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 08:09 am (UTC)
Oh, hadn't thought about Neil Gaiman--cool.

Hmm, the thing with Sleepy Hollow is that I'd actually like to show how films etc. still play with Gothic elements even though they're actually not Gothic...I mean, I bet Tim Burton made Sleepy Hollow so Gothic because it's a Gothic story in the first place. Gothic films are still made, of course--just think of Frankenstein and DRacula but...hm, I'd like to analyse more how Gothic elements are used in "original" stuff. Can't really explain it.

only that I think not all horror movies/books/shows can automatically be classified as modern "Gothic". Do you know what I mean? I think especially some of the more "drastic" ones might not even qualify.

Well, I wasn't going for Teen Splatter Movies if that's what you mean? Even though original Gothic novels are pretty gory, they're most of all scary, not disgusting.
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(no subject) - [identity profile] snarkyart.livejournal.com on May 20th, 2008 10:53 am (UTC)